Introduction
One of the hardest things I’ve found in enablement isn’t getting reps to ask better discovery questions or understand their personas.
It’s helping them develop real business acumen.
When I say business acumen, I mean the ability to understand how a prospect actually creates, measures, and captures business value – how decisions are made, what trade-offs leaders weigh, and how different functions connect to drive outcomes.
It’s the skill of seeing the bigger picture, not just the buying process.
That kind of strategic thinking changes everything.
But it doesn’t come naturally to most sellers – especially in fast-moving environments where tactical wins often trump long-term insight.
I was fortunate to stumble across a framework that helped bridge this gap.
It was part of a programme by the team at MEDDICC, and it introduced me to the sales value pyramid – a deceptively simple model that reframes the way sales teams think about value.
What struck me was how it helped reps stop thinking like vendors and start thinking like partners.
It gave them a way to structure their conversations, not around features or functions, but around the layered priorities of a business: from big-picture ambitions to operational realities to solution fit.
It was so impactful that I ended up creating a sales business case template based on the model!
In this article, I’ll walk you through the sales value pyramid step by step, showcasing how it works in the messy, real world of sales.
To keep things grounded, we’ll follow a hypothetical buyer, ACME Logistics, and two very different sellers: one from a tech startup, the other from a consultancy.
You’ll see how the same pyramid can guide both – helping each one anchor their message in what the potential customer really cares about.
If you’ve ever struggled to move your team from transactional conversations to customers’ strategic objectives, or wanted to make business acumen more tangible in your sales process, this framework might be the unlock.
Let’s climb the pyramid together!
(Just don’t climb the actual pyramids though, you can end up in jail.)
Make better enablement decisions. Execute faster. Deliver greater business impact.
What is the sales value pyramid and why is it useful?
In simple terms, the sales value pyramid is a practical framework that helps you link your solution to what matters most to your customer’s business – at every level.
This allows you to tailor your message and build a compelling case for your solution across a range of stakeholders, from strategic decision-makers in the C-suite to the operational teams responsible for day-to-day execution.
At its core, the pyramid has five levels:
Goals: top-level business objectives that define what the company ultimately wants to achieve, often reflected in mission statements or annual reports.
Strategies: actionable plans that outline how the organisation intends to reach its goals, serving as the roadmap from ambition to execution.
Initiatives: specific, prioritised projects or programmes (usually time-bound and funded) that put strategies into action.
Obstacles: internal or external barriers that threaten the success of initiatives and must be overcome to achieve the desired outcomes. (You may call these pains.)
Needs: capabilities, resources, or solutions required to address obstacles and enable the successful delivery of initiatives. Put simply, what you’re selling.
Here’s the catch – most sales situations don’t involve just one pyramid.
Companies rarely have a single neat set of priorities.
They’re juggling multiple strategies, initiatives, and, inevitably, their own obstacles and needs.
Usually, the top of the pyramid (the goal) stays the same, but the strategies or initiatives underneath shift, creating new challenges and requirements.
The hypothetical buyer – ACME Logistics
Let’s bring this to life with a hypothetical buyer, ACME Logistics.
Acme is a mid-sized logistics provider with 600 employees, operating across several regions. Like most real-world companies, Acme’s ambitions aren’t limited to a single objective; they’re working towards a big-picture goal while pursuing several strategies in parallel.
At the very top of Acme’s value pyramid sits their overarching goal:
Become the most innovative but reliable logistics partner in the Nordics.
To get there, Acme’s leadership has set out three key strategies:
- Modernise delivery operations using advanced technology to set a new standard for reliability and transparency.
- Lead the market in sustainable logistics by transitioning to a low-emissions fleet.
- Attract and retain top logistics talent to support growth and maintain service quality.
Each of these strategies forms the foundation for its own pyramid, with distinct initiatives, obstacles, and needs underneath.
Pyramid #1 – Delivery operations modernisation
For example, let’s look at the strategy to modernise delivery operations.
The initiatives here might include:
- Rolling out a real-time tracking platform across all regional hubs within 12 months.
- Piloting automated route planning.
- Upgrading legacy IT systems within a specific budget.
As you can imagine, these various initiatives will introduce specific obstacles, as well as needs.
Pyramid #2 – Sustainable logistics
Now, take the strategy to lead in sustainable logistics.
The initiatives could include:
- Replacing at least 30% of the fleet with electric vehicles by the end of next year.
- Launching an emissions reduction campaign.
- Partner with local governments on charging infrastructure.
Once again, these will involve a wholly different set of obstacles and needs.
Pyramid #3 – Top talent retention
Finally, consider the strategy to attract and retain top logistics talent.
The initiatives here might include:
- Launching a comprehensive driver development and retention programme over the next 12 months.
- Redesigning the onboarding process to shorten ramp time and reduce early attrition, with tailored training paths for different driver profiles
- Implementing engagement analytics to track sentiment, flag disengagement early, and identify patterns behind driver turnover
Already, you can see how Acme’s single goal branches into multiple pyramids – each strategy spawning its own set of initiatives, obstacles, and needs.
(I’ve left out the Obstacles and Needs at this point because the pyramids get really complex).
Some elements may overlap, but the details quickly diverge.
For sellers, the goal is to uncover and align with the specific pyramid that reflects the buyer’s current focus – not just the surface-level needs, but the full stack of customer expectations, goals, strategies, initiatives, and challenges behind them.
That’s how you move beyond pitching features and start positioning your solution in a way that shows a deep understanding of functional benefits and resonates with how the business actually thinks.
The value pyramid makes this possible – helping you map your message to the right conversation, at the right level, for the right stakeholder.
If you skip this work, you’re leaving it up to the buying committee to figure out how you fit in, which is a gamble most deals can’t afford.
In the next section, I’ll break down each level of the pyramid (goals, strategies, initiatives, obstacles, and needs) so you can see how they work together – and how to use them to sell more strategically.
Breaking down the pyramid: 5 levels explained
Let’s unpack the pyramid, layer by layer.
As mentioned earlier, the value pyramid helps you make sense of what’s really driving your customer’s decisions – from high-level ambitions and corporate objectives, through strategic imperatives, to day-to-day constraints.
Each level plays a different role, and knowing how to spot and work with those differences is what separates strategic sales professionals from those who simply pitch features and hope something lands.
We’ll start at the top.
Goals
At the very peak of the value pyramid sit the goals.
These are the big, aspirational statements that define what the company is ultimately trying to accomplish. Think of them as the ultimate mission – a guiding ambition that shapes everything underneath.
For Acme Logistics, the goal is clear:
Become the most innovative yet reliable logistics partner in the Nordics.
You’ll usually find goals in mission statements, annual reports, or the opening lines of a CEO’s keynote.
Here are a few examples of some of the largest companies’ goals:
- IKEA – “To create a better everyday life for the many people.”
- Microsoft – “To empower every person and every organisation on the planet to achieve more.”
- Patagonia – “We’re in business to save our home planet.”
The last one may seem strange for an activewear company, but there’s actually more to it than just jumping on the ESG wagon.
Even if a company isn’t shouting its goals from the rooftops, they’re still there. Sometimes, you just have to dig a little deeper – through “About Us” pages, leadership speeches, job postings, or even Glassdoor reviews.
A bit of research can go a long way, especially with smaller or less public companies.
And while goals might seem distant from your solution, they shape the direction of every strategy, initiative, and decision that follows.
Strategies
If goals define the destination, strategies chart the main roads a company will take to get there. They’re the actionable, long-range plans that translate ambition into a set of guiding choices that shape focus, investments, and priorities over months or even years.
Uncovering a company’s strategies isn’t always as easy as skimming their website, but the clues are usually there if you know where to look.
For public companies, start with the obvious: annual reports, investor presentations, and earnings calls.
Private and mid-sized companies, like ACME Logistics, require a bit more detective work.
For instance, new roles or departments often signal a strategic shift.
And don’t underestimate the value of personal conversations. If you know someone who has insight into the company, have a quick chat. Or, if you’re already speaking with someone internally, try asking:
“What are the key priorities or focus areas for the business this year? And how do your department priorities or focus areas tie to that?”
It’s a simple question, but it can open the door to valuable context.
Strategies are also the layer where you can begin tying your solution to real functional value – what the company is actively pursuing, not just what it aspires to.
Take ACME Logistics as an example.
Their three strategies (modernising delivery operations with advanced tech, leading in sustainable logistics, and attracting top logistics talent) aren’t just management talking points.
For a seller, these strategies are the signposts that show where your solution can make a real business impact.
This matters because aligning with strategy is how you move from a “nice-to-have” vendor to a valued partner.
If you’re selling a real-time tracking platform, you’re helping ACME deliver on their promise of reliability and transparency – not simply offering another piece of software.
If your expertise is in workforce development, you’re helping them strengthen their position as an employer of choice in a tough labour market – not just delivering training.
I’ll revisit these later in the article in the Hypothetical case study section.
However, we first need to take a closer look at the rest of the sales value pyramid.
Initiatives
Initiatives are where strategies start to get real. These are the concrete, prioritised projects or programmes that put a company’s plans into motion.
Unlike goals or strategies, initiatives come with deadlines, owners, and budgets.
They’re the things you’ll spot in project plans, internal updates, or board slides: “roll out a real-time tracking platform,” “upgrade our fleet management software,” or “launch a driver retention programme.”
It’s worth pointing out that a single strategy will almost always spawn multiple initiatives.
Take ACME Logistics’ push to modernise delivery operations.
That might mean rolling out a new tracking platform, piloting automated route planning, and upgrading legacy IT – all running in parallel or sequence.
Their sustainability strategy could drive initiatives like replacing part of the fleet with electric vehicles, launching an emissions reduction campaign, and partnering with local governments on charging infrastructure.
For sellers, this is the level where your solution can become directly relevant.
If you can connect what you offer to a live initiative or multiple initiatives, you are helping your potential customer deliver on something that’s already in motion.
The key is to dig into the specifics.
Two different companies might share the same headline strategy (e.g., “modernise delivery operations”), but the initiatives they pursue under that strategy could be entirely different.
That’s why it’s important to uncover not just what the potential customer wants to achieve, but what they’re actively working on right now.
One might be investing in a new tracking platform and piloting automated route planning, while another is focused on simply renewing their fleet with new vehicles and launching a customer self-service portal.
Each initiative comes with its own set of challenges, key decision makers, and decision criteria.
For sellers, this means you can’t assume that understanding the strategy alone is enough.
The real opportunities and the real obstacles live at the initiative level.
If you skip this step, you risk pitching something that sounds good in theory but doesn’t match what the potential customer is actually prioritising and/or funding today.
With initiatives identified and explained, it is time to move down a level, to obstacles.
Obstacles
Obstacles are where reality bites, and for people in sales, they’re usually more commonly referred to as “pains.”
These are the barriers, internal or external, that threaten the success of a company’s initiatives and, by extension, its strategies and goals.
Sometimes pains are obvious: budget constraints, outdated systems, or a lack of skilled people.
Other times, they’re less visible but just as disruptive, like resistance to change, regulatory hurdles, or competing priorities.
Every initiative, no matter how well planned, runs into obstacles.
For ACME Logistics, rolling out a real-time tracking platform might hit legacy IT systems that can’t integrate with new software, or frontline staff who are wary of adopting unfamiliar technology.
Their push to electrify the fleet could stall due to high upfront costs or a lack of charging infrastructure.
In sales, the best sellers know that it is important to go beyond just spotting obstacles.
Great sellers go further:
- Identify the pain (uncover the obstacle and articulate it clearly)
- Indicate the impact (show how the pain puts the initiative at risk)
- Implicate the consequences (connect the dots: if the initiative fails, the strategy is threatened and that may have a negative financial impact on the organisation)
Here’s the thing: many prospects aren’t fully aware of how deeply these pains are affecting their business.
They might feel the symptoms but haven’t traced them back to what’s really at stake.
Other times, they might be experiencing the symptoms but they feel they are indicative of something trivial. In such cases, they might feel that doing nothing might be the way to go.
The best sellers guide the conversation, using the customer’s language to help buyers see not just the pain itself, but the wider implications – why it matters now, and what’s at risk if nothing changes.
This is where the value pyramid really earns its keep.
When you can link an obstacle to the potential failure of an initiative, and from there to the broader strategy and goal, you’re not just solving a problem or two.
Instead, you’re positioning yourself as the partner who can help save the day.
That’s when you stop being just another vendor for your customers.
In such a situation, key sales indicators improve almost naturally, including, but not limited to the following:
- Average deal size
- Win rate
- Sales cycle length
- Lifetime customer value (associated to customer loyalty)
- Upsell and cross-sell rates
This kind of relationship is also far more likely to lead to referrals to new customers. Moreover, these referrals will be far more impactful.
Instead of, “Yeah, their software is really easy to use and they’re not too expensive.”, your customers will tell their peers and friends how you, “Completely took care of their integration issues”, or, “Saved their a**es when their drivers started to leave for other companies.”
Next, we’ll look at needs: the capabilities and solutions required to overcome these obstacles and get initiatives and strategies back on track.
Make better enablement decisions. Execute faster. Deliver greater business impact.
Needs
Needs are where everything comes together.
At this level of the value pyramid, we’re talking about the specific capabilities, resources, or solutions required to overcome the obstacles and ensure the success of your potential customer’s initiatives.
Simply put, this is what you’re selling, but it’s also what the customer must have in order to move forward.
While obstacles highlight the pains that block progress, needs represent the practical requirements that must be met to clear those hurdles.
These can be technical features, operational capabilities, financial resources, or even strategic partnerships.
For ACME Logistics, overcoming legacy IT obstacles might require a cloud-based, interoperable tracking solution with strong change management support.
Their obstacle to improving the onboarding process could be a lack of real-time feedback mechanisms for the early stages of the onboarding journey.
The need that would help them overcome this obstacle would be, for example, a digital onboarding platform with built-in feedback and analytics tools, allowing managers to monitor new hire progress and quickly intervene if engagement or understanding drops off.
But here’s the catch: needs aren’t generic.
The best sellers know that “robust,” “scalable,” or “user-friendly” are just starting points.
Real value comes from tailoring solutions to the customer’s unique context and making sure they’re aligned with the decision criteria that will actually drive a purchase.
This is where you move from being another option to being the obvious answer.
It’s also worth remembering that customers don’t always have a clear view of what they need.
Sometimes they think they want a feature or a function, but haven’t connected it to the pain it solves or the initiative it supports.
The most effective sales professionals guide buyers through this process, helping them clarify, prioritise, and ultimately gain consensus on what’s truly required.
One of the most powerful ways to do this is through relevant, real-world examples.
These stories or reference points from existing customers show how your solution addressed similar needs, overcame obstacles, and delivered measurable value.
For instance, our hypothetical workforce consultancy (TalentPulse) would share a story like this:
As you can see, the story wasn’t about a flashy new benefit.
Instead, it was about meeting the real needs behind the obstacles. It is pure value-based sales.
Headwinds and tailwinds
Before diving too far into strategies, it’s worth pausing to talk about something that sits between goals and strategies (and affects all the levels below) in the value pyramid: “winds”.
In sales, you’ll hear these called headwinds and tailwinds and understanding them can make or break your ability to connect with a buyer’s real-world situation in a strategic way.
Headwinds are the challenges or negative trends that slow a company down or make it harder to achieve their goals.
Think of things like increased competition, new regulations, economic downturns, or supply chain disruptions. They’re the forces pushing against your buyer, making progress more difficult.
Tailwinds, on the other hand, are the favourable trends or external boosts that help a company move faster toward its goals.
These might include a booming market, new technology that makes operations easier, a regulatory change that opens up opportunities or even shifts in consumer behaviour that play to your buyer’s strengths.
What’s interesting is that the same event can be a headwind for one company and a tailwind for another.
For example, a new data privacy law might be a headache (headwind) for a marketing agency, but a golden opportunity (tailwind) for a consultancy specialising in privacy compliance.
Why do winds matter for sellers?
Winds are rarely spelt out in annual reports, but they’re often hiding in plain sight – in news articles, industry forums, or simply on LinkedIn.
The best sellers use winds to spark genuinely insightful conversations.
Instead of asking generic questions like, “What’s making things harder for you this year?” they get specific with questions like:
- “How are you tackling the upcoming data regulation changes in the Nordics?”
- “With fuel prices on the rise, how are you thinking about protecting your margins this quarter?”
For tailwinds, it might sound like:
- “What’s your plan to capture the surge in e-commerce demand this season?”
- “How are you scaling your operations now that delivery volumes are up across the region?”
These kinds of questions do more than show you’ve read the headlines. They demonstrate you understand the forces shaping your buyer’s world.
They also help you position your solution as a way to overcome a headwind or ride a tailwind, making your value proposition immediately relevant.
Let’s bring this to life for ACME Logistics:
Headwind: Rising fuel prices and increased environmental regulations are driving up operating costs, making it harder for ACME to maintain margins and invest in new technology.
Tailwind: The rapid growth of e-commerce in the Nordics is creating unprecedented demand for reliable, flexible logistics services, giving ACME more opportunities to win new business and expand its footprint.
As a seller, recognising these winds lets you frame your conversations in a way that’s immediately relevant.
You can show how your solution helps ACME weather the headwind (e.g., by improving route efficiency to offset fuel costs) or ride the tailwind (e.g., by scaling up to capture new e-commerce contracts).
Hypothetical case studies: the sales value pyramid in action
This is the part of the article towards which I’ve been building so far – a practical examination of how two different sellers (alluded to earlier in the text) can use the sales value pyramid to sell into ACME Logistics.
The point is to illustrate the practical value of the sales value pyramid as a superb tool for strategic selling.
Setting the scene
ACME Logistics, our mid-sized logistics provider, with 600 employees and operations across the Nordics, is aiming to become the region’s most innovative but reliable delivery partner.
They’re juggling multiple strategies to get there, and I’ll show how two very different (also purely hypothetical) companies – RouteOpt (a tech startup) and TalentPulse (a workforce consultancy) – each use the value pyramid to connect their solutions to ACME’s priorities.
How sellers can use the sales value pyramid
I believe the best way to show how “our” sellers can use the sales value pyramid is to revisit the three pyramids that I identified earlier in the article.
You will notice that these are somewhat different.
For one, I “removed” the second pyramid associated with the sustainable logistics strategy since neither of our two sellers can help with that, or at least not in a direct, obvious way.
Also, you will see that I’ve defined the obstacles and the needs for the various initiatives in the other two pyramids.
Most importantly, you will notice that I have included the sellers’ logos next to the Needs > Obstacles > Initiatives > Strategies that they address.
Let’s break these down and, hopefully, you’ll get a better insight into how these two companies use the sales value pyramid and how you can apply it to your prospective buyers, too.
Navigate up, down, and across
One of the biggest misconceptions about the value pyramid is that you always start at the top and work your way down.
In reality, discovery is rarely that tidy.
Sometimes you’ll hear about a new initiative in the market and work up to understand the strategy and goal behind it, as well as to drill down to obstacles and needs your product may solve.
Other times, you’ll uncover a pain point or a specific need and then work up and down the pyramid to see what’s driving it and what it’s blocking.
The key is not to stop at the first layer you uncover. The real power of the pyramid is in jumping the layers, using “how” and “why” questions to move both up and down.
For example:
A salesperson from RouteOpt learns about an initiative (“We’re rolling out real-time tracking”), and they ask, “How did you decide this was a priority?” or “Why is this important now?” to move up to strategy and goal.
If a stakeholder shares a pain (“Our onboarding is inconsistent”), an AE from TalentPulse will ask, “How is that impacting your current projects?” or “What would solving this unlock for your team?” to move both up to initiatives and down to specific needs.
This approach means you’re never satisfied with a surface-level answer. Instead, you’re building a layered understanding, one that lets you map exactly where your solution fits and, just as importantly, where it doesn’t.
Speaking of understanding where your solution doesn’t fit…
Find your place – don’t try to sell everywhere
Take a closer look at the pyramids above and you’ll see something important: the RouteOpt and TalentPulse icons only appear next to certain strategies, initiatives, obstacles, and needs.
That’s by design, not by accident.
RouteOpt is mapped only to one initiative in the “Modernise delivery operations” pyramid – Roll out a real-time tracking platform.
Namely, where they might also be of help with data quality issues from the second initiative or even something from the third initiative, they understand that trying to take on too much at once would only dilute their messaging and needlessly complicate the sales process.
They are even realistic enough to admit that they are too small to help with the Change management support need that is part of the initiative. They may find some workarounds if they start serious talks with ACME Logistics, but they know not to sell to this particular need and the corresponding obstacle.
TalentPulse is mapped only to the people and process challenges in the “Talent acquisition and retention” pyramid. That being said, they understand that while their primary focus is on the initiative Driver development and retention programme, they can also help with the need Onboarding process redesign, thus also selling into the second initiative.
You won’t find their logos scattered all over the place, and that’s the point.
In the real world, trying to be everything to everyone rarely works. Sellers who attempt to cover every box end up diluting their credibility and confusing their message.
The best sellers focus on where they can genuinely make an impact, and they’re comfortable leaving gaps where their solution doesn’t fit.
This is another way to see the sales value pyramid as your filter: if your logo doesn’t belong in a box, don’t force it. Instead, zero in on the places where you can move the needle and let your focus become an additional differentiator.
Spot partnership or referral opportunities
One of the most underrated advantages of mapping your value honestly on the pyramid is that it highlights the gaps, those needs or obstacles you can’t (and shouldn’t) try to solve yourself.
Rather than seeing these as a weakness, the best sellers use them as a springboard to become a trusted advisor.
When you acknowledge where your offer stops, and then proactively recommend a partner or specialist who can help, you do three things at once:
- You show you’re focused on the customer’s success, not just your quota.
- You build trust and credibility – buyers remember the seller who solved the whole problem, not just their slice of it.
- You often unlock reciprocal referrals or future opportunities from the partners you recommend.
What does this look like in practice?
RouteOpt knows their platform is great at technical integration, but they don’t handle change management.
When ACME Logistics flags concerns about staff adoption, RouteOpt might say:
“We’ve seen companies get the best results when they bring in a specialist for change management.
We’ve worked alongside [ChangeWave Consulting] before; they’re fantastic at helping teams adopt new tech.
Would you like an introduction?”
Or, if ACME needs deeper analytics than RouteOpt’s platform offers, they could refer a data analytics partner they’ve successfully collaborated with in the past.
TalentPulse excels at process and people-focused consulting but doesn’t provide digital onboarding tools. If ACME needs a unified onboarding platform, TalentPulse might say:
“To really bring our onboarding process redesign to life, you’ll want a digital platform that can scale as you grow.
We’ve partnered with [Onboardly] on similar projects – they’re a great fit for logistics businesses.
Happy to connect you.”
Or, if ACME is looking for engagement analytics, TalentPulse could recommend a trusted employee engagement software provider.
Using the value pyramid to uncover partnership and referral options takes it to a whole other level and makes it more than just a (fantastic) sales tool.
Make better enablement decisions. Execute faster. Deliver greater business impact.
Expert tips for using the value pyramid
Some of the following expert tips you may have gathered from the article so far, but I figured it might be a good idea to list them out intentionally in this way.
Using the sales value pyramid has proved to be transformational for the sales organisations that I’ve supported and I wanted to wrap up the article with a few tips that could help you really get the most out of this one-of-a-kind tool.
1. Map for each stakeholder
Most accounts have more than one pyramid in play. Tailor your mapping to the priorities of each decision-maker. Don’t assume one pyramid fits all.
2. Treat your pyramid as a living document
Update your mapping as you learn more in discovery. Bring it to meetings, share it with your champion, and use it to validate your understanding with the potential customer.
3. Collaborate and validate
Don’t just build your pyramid in isolation. Ask, “Does this reflect your priorities?” or “What’s missing?” to build consensus and credibility.
4. Qualify in and out
Use the pyramid to focus on high-impact opportunities. If your solution only addresses a minor need or a low-priority initiative, be ready to walk away or deprioritise.
5. Orchestrate the buying process
Use your pyramid to brief new stakeholders, align cross-functional teams, and keep everyone focused on what matters most, especially as deals progress.
6. Share your work
A clear, visual pyramid helps your champion sell internally. The more you make the mapping visible, the easier it is for others to advocate for your solution.
Conclusion
The sales value pyramid brings order to the chaos of modern selling.
It gives you a way to see your customer’s world in layers with goals at the top, needs at the base, and all the messy, real-world detail in between.
Sellers who use this framework stop haphazardly pitching features and hoping something lands.
They map their strengths to the places where they can actually make a difference, and they’re honest about the gaps they can’t fill.
When you approach an account this way, you start to notice a shift.
Conversations become more focused, and your credibility rises because you’re speaking to what matters most.
You find yourself invited into bigger, more strategic discussions.
Try building a value pyramid for your next opportunity.
Use it to guide your discovery, qualify your fit, and align your proposal with the buyer’s real priorities.
The more you practice, the more natural it becomes, and the faster you’ll move from being seen as a vendor to being valued as a strategic partner.
That’s where the real wins are found.
